JIM LEHRER: Let's start with Russia. Putin has accused you of inciting unrest in his country and of making his situation, and the situation for the people of Russia, worse. Now does that kind of thing walk on the desire to improve all these economic things that the United States also wants to do with Russia?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, that's the balancing act we do literally every day. You know, I think one of our strongest values is our protection and advocacy for human rights, and in particular our support for democracy, and the recognition that although elections are not by any means the only definition of democracy, they are a kind of, you know, condition that would be - that has to be satisfied to go forward.
And so we're always looking at how we can communicate clearly what the United States stands for, and in this case what the Russian people deserve. I mean, this was not about the United States; this was about the people of Russia, you know. Independent observers had reached the conclusion that there was unfortunately a lot of interference, manipulation of the election. I think the evidence proves - and we certainly believe - that, you know, middle-class people, societies that have upward mobility, the opportunity for entrepreneurs to start businesses, grow those businesses, create jobs and wealth, you know - all of that is in America's interests. And when the government is either heavy-handed, or largely the economy of a country is driven through state-owned enterprises, that disadvantages our businesses and by extension our workers, our investors, our people. Or if you have oligarchs that control so much of the wealth that it's difficult for people with a good idea in their own country to be able to break through to start that business, well, you know, that doesn't add to the intellectual property of the entire world or create additional opportunities for our investment. You know, both for political freedom and economic freedom, which are the best routes to social and economic success - you know, more openness, you know, more responsiveness, more accountability and transparency, whether it's in elections or being able to start a business are, in the overall calculation, a benefit to us as well as the people who themselves are experiencing it.
JIM LEHRER: One of the main things the United States has always contributed to the world and does to this day is its ideas. We are an idea society. And China is stealing them.
HILLARY CLINTON: That's right.
JIM LEHRER: And it all comes into the - under the term "intellectual property."
HILLARY CLINTON: That's right.
JIM LEHRER: What are you doing about that?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, besides raising Cain, which we do regularly, on behalf of our companies, as well as on behalf of our entire economy - you know, we're looking for leverage points - as I say, these new rules of the road - to protect intellectual property, to tighten up our own controls so that we don't see the leakage or the theft of intellectual property.
But again, this is - you know, on the scale that it's occurring, it's quite large, but it's not a new problem. Well, it'd be one thing if you were competing against a - another business doing that. But you basically have the whole Chinese, you know, trade and governmental apparatus that you have to deal with, and - so we have to come to the defense of and champion our businesses in fighting this out on a case-by-case basis, but we also have to begin to move China along with others to accept new global rules about how we're going to protect global intellectual property.
JIM LEHRER: And how do you make that argument? What are you - who do you - how do you do that?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, there -
JIM LEHRER: Who do you say it to?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, we say it at the highest levels of the Chinese government in our constant interactions with them. And, you know, you can - you can imagine the ambivalence by the Chinese because, you know, they look at what they've accomplished in 30 years, and they see how much more they have yet to do. They see still the lack of development in many parts of the countryside, the problems they think they might run into, unemployment as their wages naturally rise, and then businesses - even Chinese businesses - start to look elsewhere for cheaper labor. I mean, they're trying to manage a galloping horse, so to speak. And we come in and say, You are influencing what is going on and you need to be more thoughtful about that. And you need to engage in a more responsible leadership role.
JIM LEHRER: Move to another part of the world - the Arab spring. What have been the economic consequences for the United States from that?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, first, Jim, I think it's important to remember that the Arab spring really started in Tunisia because of the total frustration of a young Tunisian vegetable vendor to make a good living for himself and his family.
And in much of the work we are now doing in supporting the democratic transitions, it is as much about the economy as it is about, you know, political freedom, democracy building, et cetera. And you can understand why, because if you look at any of the last decades' worth of U.N. reports on Arab development, you know, other than the elite, you know, the oil-producing countries that were able to spend very broadly with lots of largesse, you know, there wasn't a lot of trade, there wasn't a lot of innovation. The governments were incredibly hostile and cumbersome to deal with if you wanted to start business and on and on.
So our - you know, our emphasis has been, how do we support their democratic aspirations? And how do we ensure that their economic aspirations are married to that? Because we know that if we can't bring some economic progress, then, you know, we're not going to see the kind of institutional foundation for these changes that we want.
JIM LEHRER: But in general, good for America, right?
HILLARY CLINTON: Look, I think we are always better off being on the side of democracy, but we have to keep our eyes wide open. There is no guarantee that this will be an easy road for the people themselves or, frankly, for us. And, you know, it wasn't so long ago in our history when we were engaged in the Cold War that when countries had democratic elections, sometimes if they elected people we didn't like, we took some action on that which, you know, didn't always turn out as well as it should have.
Well, now, you know, in the 21st century with interconnectivity and information, you know, so broadly available, I think, number one, you know, we are for democracy, but we're for democracy that actually meets the definition that is more appropriate than just saying, OK, have an election one time; whoever wins, good for you, you're now in charge.
No. I mean, you have to embed the habits of the heart that, you know, de Tocqueville wrote about, so that you have a free press, you have an independent judiciary, you protect minority rights; I mean, that's one of our biggest concerns now. Women - you know, are women who were in the squares in Tunis or Cairo or, you know, supporting the fighters in Libya, are they going to be given a chance to fulfill their own potential? So there are a lot of unanswered questions, to say nothing of the kind of, you know, geopolitical implications for Israel and for our interests and so much else. But supporting democratic transformation and economic transformation is in America's interests.
JIM LEHRER: Speaking of Israel, was what Newt Gingrich said about the "invented" people of Palestine helpful?
HILLARY CLINTON: No. No. (Laughter.) And I think he recognized that, from what I - what I read. I think he realized that was, you know, one of those innovative moments that happen in politics. (Laughter.)
JIM LEHRER: Madam Secretary, thank you very much.
HILLARY CLINTON: Thank you, Jim.
